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Subject:   Traveller-digest V1996 #258
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Traveller-digest           Tuesday, 16 July 1996       Volume 1996 : Number 258

(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

         1. Re: Unsuscribing
         2. Temporary Signoff Over
         3. Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
         4. Re: Jump space theory
         5. Re: Unsuscribing
         6. none
         7. 20th Century Culture.
         8. Re: Another fall theory...
         9. Re: Realism
        10. Re: Pop Culture in Trav
        11. Re: Jump 6
        12. Re: Temporary Signoff Over
        13. RE: Knowledge of Terran History
        14. Re: Jump space theory

----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:55:11 -0600
Subject: Re: Unsuscribing

At 10:15 pm 7/15/96 -0400, you wrote:
>I no this doesn't belong on the TML, but I've followed the intructions to
>unsuscribing Traveller ML as e-mail and converting to digest, and the
>majordomo keeps sending my mail back as unreadable.
>
>is it:  unsuscribe traveller musashi@norfolk.infi.net or what?

         unsuBscribe
>
>and is it: suscribe traveller-digest musashi@norfolk.infi.net?

            suBscribe

You left out the "b" in each word. That's why majordomo doesn't understand
- -- suscribe is not a word, subscribe is.
- --________________________________________________________________
	I'm temporarily offline. To avoid mailbox overflow, I'm
dropping my mailing lists. Please CC: me personally on any reply 
to this message. Thanks!


------------------------------

From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@usa.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:53:23 -0600
Subject: Temporary Signoff Over

        I'm baaack ...
- --________________________________________________________________
	I'm temporarily offline. To avoid mailbox overflow, I'm
dropping my mailing lists. Please CC: me personally on any reply 
to this message. Thanks!

------------------------------

From: Paul Walker <tiger@datasync.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 22:23:49 -0500
Subject: Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****

>From: derek stanley <dstanley@direct.ca>
>Subject: Re: ID4  ****SPOILER WARNING****
>
>Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> Whatever it is, it *isn't* a laser.
>
>ITS THE WAVE MOTION GUN!!!

Dear God, those poor People!!!  :)

> 
>> But I'd say that wrecking the output end of anything sending out
>> nuclear level amounts of energy is going to result in the energy being
>> deposited in the ship, rather than the target.
>> 
>> Me, I'm surprised that there was that much *left* of the ship,
>> considering what they did to the cities.
>> 
>> ps. Assuming we can recover enough data from the wreckage to build our
>> own, one would hope that all involved have the brains to make our
>> vessels look as *little* like theirs as is practical. :-)
>
>Ya, but send in the marines first.  Imagine the crew on one of those 
>puppies...  Imagaine how many burbly green psionic alien queen headed 
>psychopaths might have survived a crash on one of those things.

Not to mention their super powered exoskeletal space suits (can you say
Battledress?)


Paul  {tiger}


------------------------------

From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 96 21:49:55 -0600
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

On 07/15/96 at 07:30 PM,  Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
said:

>Hmmm.  Would you mind posting them?  Or, if you prefer to wait a
>month,  post them with modifications made necessary by the T4 system? 
>I think it  would be worthwhile!  But then, it won't be my fingers
>typing all that  in. [G]

How about me waiting to see what's in T4?  I'm sure the Task System is
going to get an overhaul, and what I've got are my varient of TNE's.
I'll have to get them ready to send out to players in the PBEM game
that I'm starting anyway.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------




------------------------------

From: mike & patty <musashi@norfolk.infi.net>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:54:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Unsuscribing

Thanks a lot! I can't believe I left the B out of suBscribe! After all, I'm
a technical writer by profession! Agggh!

Don't tell any of my contracts about this....pullllleese, whine, whimper,
snivel.

Musashi



------------------------------

From: gdw.support@genie.com
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 03:23:00 UTC 0000
Subject: none

>2.	Trav Background
>
>Loren replied:
>
>>partially inspired by Gibbon's _Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire_.
>>We had all read the trilogy, of course...
>
>I thought that was one of those series that everyone agreed was a great
>reference work, but no-one ever actually *read*. ;-)

When I say we had all read the trilogy, I was referring to Asimov's
Foundation trilogy. As far as I know, I am the only one at GDW who
has read Gibbon's _Decline and Fall_ (but I am _not_the only one who
has listened to the Goon Show


Loren Wiseman


------------------------------

From: Charles Collin <charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 00:23:33 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: 20th Century Culture.

Hi all. 
	My good friend Gord has just mentioned an interesting idea
regarding the problem of "how much of 20th century culture will be
remembered in 5700 AD".  The realistic answer is simply to say: "not
much".  But then you lose all sorts of cool opportunities to name ships
things like the Arthur C. Clarke or the Crazy Horse.  And you lose all
sorts of other opportunities to make neat allusions and references. 
Gord's suggested solution is simply to assume that when you have an
anachronistic allusion (or reference), it alludes to (or refers to) a
contemporary equivalent.  E.g., a ship named Crazy Horse is not really
named after a native american from 3000 years ago (who would probably not
be remembered by many in the 57th century), but is named after someone
closer to 5700 who falls into a similar sort of archetype and who's name
evokes the same conotations. 
	Of course, the ideal solution is to come up with background 
materials so rich and so deep that you don't even _need_ 20th century 
references, cuz you've got enough from your own future history.  But 
that's a lot of work :-).

Happy Travelling,
Charles.


<0>    "Life is either a daring adventure, or nothing." -Helen Keller 	 <0>
<0>     Charles Collin (charles@hebb.psych.mcgill.ca), 		 	 <0>
<0>     Psychology Department, McGill University.  		 	 <0> 
<0>     1205 Dr. Penfield, Montreal, Quebec, Canada, H3A 1B1.  	 	 <0>
<0>  WEB: http://www.psych.mcgill.ca/labs/chaudhuri/homepage.clab.html 	 <0>


------------------------------

From: "Peter L. Berghold" <peterb@superlink.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 01:01:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Another fall theory...

Stewart!  I'll be webifying this sometime this week as well (with your
permission of course!)

Looks good to me!

GANG!  Keep those theories coming!  :)
- -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
- -=-=-
Peter L. Berghold -- Sr Unix Specialist, TCG, Staten Island NY
http://mars.superlink.net/~peterb               peterb@superlink.net 
VOX: (718) 355-2722                              -or- berghold@tcg.com
FAX: (718) 355-4282   "... once more into the breach..."


------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:12:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Realism

On 15 Jul 96 at 15:45, Joe Walsh spewed:

> Nonetheless, well-reasoned fiction is better than poorly reasoned 
> fiction, if only because it serves to suspend the reader's disbelief in 
> the subject matter.  For instance, IMO the Virus explanation in the main 
> TNE rulebook is unbelievable; the items contibuted to this list from the 
> Survival Margin sourcebook, however, lend a bit more credence to the 
> Virus argument.  Would it not have been better to include a more detailed 
> explanation of the Virus phenominon in the main rulebook?  

I grant you this...but then again, I've always found Virus as 
presented to be a little bit unbelievable...  Your points about being 
well-reasoned are sound...

> Ah, but you seem to be asking, "Where do you stop?"  Good question.  I 
> supose you would stop when you've got something that will keep the 
> critics down to a minimum.  But that just begs the question.  The answer 
> seems to lie with talent - some sci-fi authors have such talent, and some 
> do not.  But, perhaps it can be learned...and applied to RPGs.

As with all things...talent is a must to make it believable...

> > Suspension of disbelief does have to come into play somewhere.  Jump 
> 
> Yes.  But suspension of disbelief should not be an act of will on the 
> part of the reader (or player, or referee).  The material should draw one 
> in, never dispelling that suspension of disbelief by throwing something 
> in the reader's face which is glaringly unbelievable.  

True...but at the same time there's a point where excruciating detail 
doesn't work any better than sketchiness...

> The most important aspect might be internal consistency - set up the 
> rules of how the universe works, then never violate them.  This is what a 
> good fantasy author will do.  Hard science fiction requires more.  Take 
> what we know about the universe, then fill in any gaps in that knowledge 
> with ideas that do not conflict with the things that are known.  That 
> seems, to me, to be a good rule of thumb, anyway.  Then again, I'm not a 
> science fiction author...just a reader.

Exactly...much more important than splitting hairs and trying to 
break down basic assumptions.  In present day terms, none of this 
stuff really works, after all...

> > As with all things, it is for the players in conjunction with the 
> > referee to balance realism vs. playability...  The good news is that 
> > the Traveller system has in the past (and would appear to be doing in 
> > the future) allowed you to choose to a certain extent...
> 
> Yes.  While the game should pick an initial point along the playability 
> vs. realism continuum, it should also be possible for the participants to 
> choose a somewhat different point to play at.  I simply feel the basis 
> should be more to the realism side than the playability side when it 
> comes to background, underlying technology, and so on.  
> 

I would say that after what we've seen on the list in the past few 
months, this should be a given...

Stu
 
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:17:30 -0800
Subject: Re: Pop Culture in Trav

On 15 Jul 96 at 16:06, Eris Reddoch spewed:

> On 07/15/96 at 12:40 PM,  Larry Hadley
> <lhadley@knet.knet.flemingc.on.ca> said:
> 
> 
> >> >...and if that reference means nothing to you, then you know nothin
> >> >of British pop culture.
> 
> Want me to tell you what we American's know about British pop culture?
> 
> Benny Hill, The Avengers, The Good Life, Dr Who, The Saint, The Young
> Ones, Sherlock Holmes, Agaitha Cristie, and Simply Fabulous!  <g>

Er...a bit of an addition to this list.  The Goon Show, The Blackadder Series, 
Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Ripping Yarns, the collected works of Shelley, 
Byron, Shakespeare, Samuel Johnson, Charles Dickens...a ton of rock 
bands from the last 30 years...

Some of us are a little better read and exposed to your culture than 
others on this side of the pond than others...

Stu "The Anglophile" Dollar... 

------------------------------

From: "Stuart L. Dollar" <sdollar@goodnet.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 1996 23:25:50 -0800
Subject: Re: Jump 6

On 15 Jul 96 at 19:17, Joe Walsh spewed:

> On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Bruce Johnson wrote:
> 
> > IIRC, didn't <only> the Navy HAVE J5 or 6 ships, ie; J6 jump drive 
> > was only military equipment? I'd imagine it would be sort of like 
> > walking up to a General Dynamics office, and asking to buy a couple 
> > of F-16 engines...
> 

The navy, and a covert courier business that carried messages 
independent of the xboat service for use by the navy and upper 
nobility.  They went under the name of Imperiallines.  They operated 
identical looking Jump 2 and Jump 6 ships.  They were the major form 
of communication on high priority matters between the Emperor, the 
Dukes & Archdukes, and Naval high command.  They were operated 
clandestinely as a group of tramp freighter ships under a variety of 
names in various sectors of the Imperium, but their main purpose was 
as a cover for a fleet of covert J6 message couriers...

When Strephon's clone was assassinated, the news reached Norris and 
others by Jump 6 couriers under the name Imperiallines long before 
the message reached the plebes via xboat...

For more information on Imperiallines, check out the section on them 
in the CT campaign, The Traveller Adventure...

Stu
"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov, from "Foundation"
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This tagline brought to you by Big Ed's Taco Emporium, conveniently located next to
Bob's Pet Shop.
Stuart L. Dollar           sdollar@goodnet.com    

------------------------------

From: jlindsay@direct.ca (James Lindsay)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 08:23:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Temporary Signoff Over

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996 20:53:23 -0600, David J. Golden wrote:

>         I'm baaack ...
> --________________________________________________________________
> 	I'm temporarily offline. To avoid mailbox overflow, I'm
> dropping my mailing lists. Please CC: me personally on any reply 
> to this message. Thanks!

Not according to your sig. your not...  :-)

------------------------------

From: ROWAN Iain <wm0iro@acresearch.sunderland.ac.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 96 11:07:00 PDT
Subject: RE: Knowledge of Terran History

 Mark Clark <markc@udel.edu> wrote

>  I feel the need to disagree, at least with respect to Millieu 0.  It
>has not been long since Europeans (and Americans for that matter) spent a
>large amount of time studying Greek and Roman language and history.  In
>the United States, at least, some degree of mastery of Latin was required
>to enroll in college until the late 19th Century - the rise of
>engineering is really what did that in finally.  I remember being taught
>latin and greek roots in high school so as to prepare for language
>tests, and there are some schools (mostly Catholic ones) that still
>stress latin and greek in their curriculum.

I would moderate my position slightly with regard to milieu zero.  My
original posting was referring to the New Era, and I would stand by
my assertions fully in regard to that.  I do feel that even in Milieu 0 the
history and pop culture of the US would be less important than you
believe.  The twin foundations of 'Western Culture' have for centuries
been defined as the culture of the Greeks and Romans.  These
cultures are far  more important to our development on this small
world than that of one nation of a balkanised world in an Imperium
of many many others, large numbers of whom owe their culture and
history to the Vilani, not the Solomani.

Even many citizens of the Imperium with Solomani roots will feel that
they owe their allegiance, history and culture to their home planet,
not to where their gene stock originally came from.  We are all
descended from Mitochondrial Eve who bounced about the
Kenyan or Tanzanian plains at some point - how many of us owe
our sense of identity to Africa, rather than the US, UK, Canada or
elsewhere?

Simply because the US is the dominant power, and American pop
culture is to a large extent world culture at the present, doesn't mean
that this is what will pass on to our far descendents as representation
of Terran culture.  150 years ago Great Britain was THE dominant
world power, with perhaps greater (certainly more direct) sway over
the world than the US has now.  Now we are a small, reasonably
successful island state, with an international importance that probably
owes more to our past than our present, and a lot of mad cows.

150 years before that the Spanish and the Dutch were major world
powers, etc etc.  I would expect any Terran popular culture which
passes on into the future firstly to be mutated almost beyond
recognition, and secondly to owe its origins to a polyglot, polycultural
world.

>  As a result, the history of the First Imperium and the Folks from Terra
>who Ended Their Glorious Rule will probably be a part of the average 
history
>curriculum in Millue 0, or even later.  Of course, by the time period of
>Classic Traveller, much of that history has probably been cut out of the
>curriculum, to make room for the study of all those Emperors of the Flag.

I would still argue that any histories of Terra taught to non-specialists
would concentrate on Terra's role after first contact, and would be unlikely
to delve into the early presidents of one of its nations (which is where
this thread started).  Of course, future history is probably likely to prove
us all wrong. ("Few 20th century analysts could have predicted the
amazing rise to world domination of the Glorious Belgian Empire, and
the rapid Belgification of global culture..")

>Mark "I'll see your three Roman emperors and raise you two" Clark

Iain "I'll cover your two Roman Emperors and raise you a Sassanid
Persian" Rowan

iain.rowan@sunderland.ac.uk

------------------------------

From: Joe Walsh <ransom@connect.iconnect.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 06:55:46 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Jump space theory

On Mon, 15 Jul 1996, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> How about me waiting to see what's in T4?  I'm sure the Task System is
> going to get an overhaul, and what I've got are my varient of TNE's.
> I'll have to get them ready to send out to players in the PBEM game
> that I'm starting anyway.

Sounds like a good way to handle it.   I'll be looking forward to seeing 
it!  (damn, now I have yet another thing to wait for in August. :))


- -Joe
______________________________________________________________________________
Joseph E. Walsh      |  Atari 8-Bit User and Programmer Since 1982
ransom@iconnect.net  |  Classic Traveller Referee Since 1983
Stuck in the '80s    |  Microsoft-Free and Loving It! :)



------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1996 #258
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